Anthony Lamacchia and NAR President, Kevin Sears, On the Year That Changed Real Estate

Lindsay Favazza: Hi, everyone. It’s Lindsay Favazza, your host of the Agents Who Crush It In Real Estate podcast. This week, we’re switching things up with a very special episode. Our broker-owner, Anthony Lamacchia, sat down with NAR President Kevin Sears. They dove into the lawsuits, commission changes, what realtors need to know, and what’s coming next for our industry in 2025. It’s a little different from our usual episodes, but trust me, you won’t want to miss this one. Let’s jump right in.

Anthony Lamacchia: Hey, everybody. I am excited to be here with the President of the National Association of Realtors, Mr. Kevin Sears, who is also a Lamacchia Realty realtor.

Kevin Sears: Absolutely. Beginning in April.

Anthony: Yes, that’s correct, and happy to have you here. You’ve had a really interesting, about 11 and a half months, to say the least.

Kevin: An interesting tenure in my leadership journey at NAR, that’s for sure.

Anthony: Well, I think back to when you started this journey in pursuing leadership at NAR. I can’t imagine– we’re talking 20 years, but what? About 10 years ago that you really started pursuing to be a leader or the leader?

Kevin: Yes, I think it was my second time as RPAC chair in 2015 that I realized this was something that could happen. Yes, for me it’s just always, be involved, volunteer for the committees, do the work, and when you get a job done, people notice, and other opportunities present themselves. That’s really what has happened. Where beginning in 2011, the first time I was RPAC chair, did the job so well, they wanted me to do it a second time, I guess.

Anthony: Yes, I guess so, to say the least. I was RPAC chair just for Greater Boston. You were for the whole country.

Kevin: For the whole country, yes.

Anthony: Yes, that’s a little bit of a different league, folks. Did you ever dream, when you started first, that it would be like this?

Kevin: No. No, is the short answer. What I have told folks as I’ve traveled the country is, athletics is a great training ground for leadership. One of the things about being on a team is, when somebody goes down on the field, somebody else has to go in. Luckily, that mentality is just something that served me very well throughout my entire 30 years in the business, but also in leadership. That’s what happened. Unfortunately, I became NAR’s third president in just four and a half months, back in January. January 8th. We had a great Lamacchia turnout in Boston just a couple of weeks ago when I was officially installed as the 2025 president, but no, it’s nothing that anybody would have expected.

Anthony: Dreamed of. Yes. That’s been so interesting to see. I think we should spend a couple of minutes on that, because there’s a lot of people that don’t quite understand how leadership works, or how the volunteering and moving away up the ladder, and how it’s normally an annual term. Can you break that down a little? Because there’s a lot of viewers that, they think that you’re calling every shot. They think, “Oh, you’ve been in charge for years.” You’ve been president. Here we are in the middle of December, or early December, talking, and you’ve been president since January–

Kevin: 8th. January 8th.

Anthony: Okay. A day you’ll never forget.

Kevin: [laughs] That’s right.

Anthony: Very little notice.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: All of a sudden, “Hey, you’re going to be president.” Which is, what? 11 months earlier than you expected.

Kevin: Exactly. Yes. The phone rang, I answered the call. The job that needed to get done, I feel very blessed to be in the position to be able to serve the members and the association over the last 11 months as president, and obviously, you’ve been on the leadership team since 2022. There have been a lot of difficult and challenging decisions, but what I’ve found is that the leadership team in 2024, and our newly installed team in 2025 have risen to the occasion.

When there’s difficult decisions, somebody has to make them, and so I’ll stand there and make the decisions, and I’ll stand behind the decisions that are made because any time we have a difficult decision, we’ll always ask ourselves, in the room, what’s the best thing for the members? So long as we have that focus when we’re making the decisions, then I’ll proudly stand there and talk about the decisions that were made.

Anthony: In addition, this year Sears Real Estate became a part of Lamacchia Realty back in April, as you mentioned, but you also sold a few homes this summer.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: You don’t know, but your brother, Brian, called me one day, he goes, “He didn’t sell this much last year. Now we’re with you, he’s selling all these homes.” I thought that was interesting. One of the questions, and I do plan to get into a bunch of questions that were sent to me from various realtor friends, and I had warned you I was going to go over these, but some of them were, does he sell real estate? I was like, “Wow, these people don’t understand how this works.”

Kevin: I wake up unemployed, just like the other realtors that are watching this. Every morning I wake up unemployed and work with buyers, sellers, tenants, and landlords. I will tell you, this year, by the end of the year, I’ll have had 268 days on the road. That has impacted my business. I have not sold as much this year as in past years. In August, I was one of the top agents for the Springfield August.

Anthony: That was when your brother called me and mentioned it on the phone. I can’t remember the exact, but he made a point to say, “Boy, Kevin’s doing good.”

Kevin: Anthony, I’m sure you remember at Crush It in January, when I was on stage, I talked about, before the settlement was made and announced in mid-March, I was working with a buyer, a previous client, somebody I’ve known since high school. Before it was a rule, I had my client sign a buyer rep agreement.

Anthony: Yes. You said you hadn’t done that before.

Kevin: I had never done that before. Yes, I’m going through a lot of the same things that the agents across the country are. The realtors across the country. There’s a little bit of a learning curve, but I feel blessed that because of starting it before it was mandated, and then I know the training that the company offers is just great stuff to be able to help us to be effective and to better represent our clients, whether they’re buyers or sellers.

Anthony: Yes. Thank you for saying that. One of the biggest questions that I get, before I get into these is, why did they settle? They caved. They caved. I heard that from members all over the country about NAR. I heard it from agents at KW, RE/MAX, every one of the Anywhere companies, Compass, everywhere. You know my attitude. I don’t back down from fights. My initial reaction was, we should fight these people to the death.

When people start caving, it creates pressure, but there were also some things that I will admit I learned once the verdict came down. I will say it till I go to my grave. The wrong way, I will say that forever. I don’t know if you want to, but I will. It put a lot of pressure on you guys. I didn’t quite realize that pressure till–

Kevin: Let me talk about the settlement. Unfortunately, I’m sure that some of the viewers have been involved in lawsuits before, right? Before we went to trial in October or the fall, we had settlement talks. During the middle of the trial, we had settlement talks. Then obviously, after the verdict came down, we had settlement talks. Once the verdict came down on Halloween of 2023, right after that, copycat lawsuits started getting filed, right? There were nearly two dozen across the country that had been filed, naming associations, local associations, state associations, MLSs, whether they were owned by an association or broker-owned or for-profit MLSs. They were getting named. Teams were getting named. Individual agents were getting named.

Anthony: Was that a game-changing point? Because I remember, you’re talking about some agents in Texas.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: That I remember. Because I remember it hit the news, and I think a bunch of agents that actually pay attention on the news were like, “Whoa.” Was that a point of– give me some insights.

Kevin: As we’re having the conversation, what I will tell you, now that the settlement has been approved, we have approval from the judge in Missouri. There have been some appeals filed, which we were expecting, but we are pushing forward. We’re going to be making the first payment within 90 days of the approval, as part of the agreement. The policy changes went into effect back in August. Those are staying in place, even though there are some appeals.

Let’s talk about the settlement. As we were having the conversation, what I can tell you is the goal line kept getting moved. I thought we were very close several times, and the goal line got moved.

Anthony: Because they wanted more, and more, and more, and more.

Kevin: They wanted more, and more, and more.

Anthony: Maybe you have to be nice, I don’t. [laughs]

Kevin: When we finally came to terms, everything that was in our mind– I’ll just start at the beginning. We feel that we would have a real good chance on appeal. If we filed an appeal, then we think that it would have been overturned, but likely, it would have been remanded back to the lower court for another jury trial. During that appeal, all the copycat suits would have been moving forward. Then we looked at, okay, we could have protected the National Association of Realtors alone, filed for bankruptcy.

Oh, in order to appeal, here’s one other key point. In order to appeal, it was a $1.7 billion-

Anthony: Verdict.

Kevin: -jury verdict. We would have had to post a bond of up to almost $1.8 billion, of $5.4 billion. We don’t have $1.8 billion, let alone $5.4 billion, because since it was antitrust, damages were tripled. In order to file an appeal, we would have had to declare bankruptcy.

Anthony: Which I was a proponent of for a while. I said-

Kevin: If we declared bankruptcy, it would have protected the National Association of Realtors from the verdict during the appeal process. It would have removed us from the copycat cases. Those copycat cases would have slowly churned through the court system. The agents, brokers, associations, MLSs that were all named in there would have been paying millions and millions and millions of dollars in defense fees.

Anthony: Costs. Yes.

Kevin: Costs.

Anthony: During the worst market in 30 years.

Kevin: Right. So we looked at it. One of the things, for me, bankruptcy was a non-starter for me because of the impact, I think, that it could have had on our advocacy in Washington, D.C. and in the–

Anthony: Oh, interesting. I thought you were going to say because it didn’t defend the members.

Kevin: No.

Anthony: I know that was a concern, but you’re saying you think that the advocacy, which many feel, I know I’m one of them, like that’s the strongest part of NAR, is all the work that’s done on Capitol Hill.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: You think if the team’s walking in there–

Kevin: I think that would have had an impact on us, for sure. Then to your other point where you thought I was going, is that it just would have protected NAR and nobody else. Then it came to the settlement.

Anthony: Well, hang on, hang on. They knew that, and that’s why they kept filing lawsuits threatening to file more, and then filing them and filing them. Every day in the news it was, they were coming out everywhere. Of course, I’m seeing it, and I’m like, “I must be next. I know my number is going to be up.” We were ready. We were talking to all kinds of firms. We were ready for war. Then all of a sudden, you guys came out with a settlement. Contrary to what some of you might think, this guy didn’t tell me a word. A word.

I found out what you all did. I was on a flight to Florida with my dad. I remember it came out, I put out a statement that I typed up from my phone. When I landed, then you called me and said, “Hey, I saw your statement. I just want to make sure you understand.” Then you explained some background. He didn’t say a word before.

Kevin: No, I didn’t say a word to anybody.

Anthony: I know.

Kevin: That was part of what we needed to do.

Anthony: We keep it church and the state on purpose.

Kevin: Yes. Now let’s talk about the settlement. $418 million is the amount that we agreed to pay. We agreed to make two practice changes. One was removing cooperating compensation commissions from the MLS. The second was that there be written agreements with buyers before touring a property. Let’s talk about the written agreements first. Nearly two dozen states already had that as part of their state law or license law, that buyers being represented needed to have a written agreement. Half the country was already in tune with that.

Massachusetts, we weren’t one of them. New for us. We looked at it and said, “Okay, when we get a listing, we have a contract, we have an agreement, and it’s in writing. So, okay, we can do the same thing representing a buyer client.” I want to talk about the Department of Justice. We’ll get into it later, but how they came down about questioning the written agreement with a buyer. Remind me. Let’s [crosstalk].

Anthony: We’ll get to that. I want to stay back in the time capsule. Just so everyone knows, we’re purposely going through the timeline here. By the end, we’re going to be talking into what we see in the future. What Kevin sees in the future.

Kevin: Then removing the commissions from the MLS, that was a big practice change.

Anthony: Yes. Oh, yes.

Kevin: That was a non-negotiable point for the plaintiffs. We were negotiating the best that we could, given the circumstances that we had with the $5.4 billion potential payout there. $418 million, and we’re going to pay that over three years. Within 90 days, the first payment of $197 million will be made. Then on the anniversary of the first payment for the three years after that, we’ll be paying a little over $70 million.

Anthony: $418 million. A lot of people were like, “$400 million?” That’s a part of the 1-7. Now, the 1-7 was against all the defendants.

Kevin: Was against the two corporate defendants and NAR, because two settled before the trial.

Anthony: Right before. RE/MAX settled right before, and-

Kevin: Anywhere.

Anthony: -Anywhere settled right before.

Kevin: What we were able to do in the settlement was protect over 1.4 million realtor members. We were able to protect all but 90 or so corporate brokerages that had over $2 billion in sales.

Anthony: They’re pissed. Some are still pissed. We have to talk about that.

Kevin: No, rightfully so. I’ll tell you that. That was one of the things. I’m a family man, and I feel like we left some of the family out. The only good news is, all the agents under those companies were protected by the settlement.

Anthony: It was literally the 90 broker-owners.

Kevin: It was the corporate entities.

Anthony: Yes.

Kevin: Yes. Yes, they’ve made negotiated settlements with the-

Anthony: Separately.

Kevin: -plaintiffs separately.

Anthony: You had said that, and I think you said this publicly, too, that they literally would not agree to put them in.

Kevin: Correct. That was one of the times that the goal line got moved, was when they popped that one on us.

Anthony: That was because they just saw more money. More, more, more, because they’re all greedy. Okay.

Kevin: Yes. Yes, it was tough. One of the things that we’ve realized is that we need to, as the National Association of Realtors, do a better job reconnecting with the brokerages.

Anthony: Some of them have gotten cold, right? Since.

Kevin: Yes. Our new CEO, Nykia Wright, is doing an amazing job in connecting with them, and doing outreach. Yes, some of them, like you said, rightfully so, are pretty upset with us.

Anthony: Have you guys had progress repairing some of the relationship?

Kevin: Yes. Yes, we have. We’ve had some of the folks that, right after it was announced, we had a meeting in Chicago. A bunch of them flew in. We’ve been able to-

Anthony: I heard it was a venting session.

Kevin: It was.

Anthony: Yes.

Kevin: They got a couple pounds of flesh out of me, for sure. Some of the folks that were most vocal, we’ve been able to continue the dialogue with. I think they’re slowly saying, “You know what, we are better with NAR than without NAR.” It’s just a matter of being able to continue to show them the value that we have for them, for their businesses, and for their agents.

Anthony: Yes. No, that makes sense. You mentioned the CEO, Nykia Wright, and I just want to point that out for a minute. There is a permanent CEO that runs the business.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: Then normally, every year, there’s a new president, new– why don’t you explain a couple of the positions and explain how it works normally? Now, you ended up with a longer term.

Kevin: There are seven members of the leadership team. There’s the president, president-elect, so ’25, that’ll be Kevin Brown from California. First Vice President, Christine Hansen from Florida. Our treasurer, Craig Sanford from Arizona, and typically, an immediate past president.

Anthony: Yes, you didn’t have that luxury based on, whatever.

Kevin: Then two vice presidents. Sara Lipnitz oversees advocacy, she’s from Michigan. Jennifer Branchini, from California, oversees association affairs. With the vacancy on the leadership team, we asked Vince Malta, a past president of NAR in 2020, to serve.

Anthony: Step in.

Kevin: Yes. He served in ’24, he’ll serve again in ’25. We’re very grateful to have Vince as one of the seven. Yes, so we’re the volunteer leaders, then we have an executive committee of about 75 members, a board of directors of about 1,000 members, and then 90 some odd committees. Then we also have some liaisons. Thank you for saying yes. You’re going to help us repair the relationship with the brokers across the country, because that’s going to be–

Anthony: I will certainly try, but I’ll tell you, it’s interesting, and I don’t think I’ve ever said this to Kevin, so now I’m going to say it on a podcast. I don’t know if he’ll appreciate it, but I noticed a little coldness, or a little bit of– They don’t talk to me as much about this stuff as they did before you were in the company. I think they think we call each other seven times a day, and explain these details back and forth, but I’m happy to do whatever I can to help the greater good. I’ve not been shy about stating that I think we are in a very important business, and the plaintiffs’ attorneys clearly undermined that, and they criticized, but real estate is a huge industry, and we help a lot of people.

Kevin: Nationally, we’re about 20% of GDP.

Anthony: Think about that one.

Kevin: Yes. Across the country, any residential transaction typically generates hundreds of thousands of dollars of economic activity in the local community. It varies. Some states, it’s a little less, and some states it’s a little bit more, but we are an engine for the economy, and any harm that is done to real estate can harm the economy.

Anthony: Oh, there’s no question about that. You look what’s happened with interest rates over the last few years. Interest rates went up. It’s a reminder to all of us how addicted our business is to interest rates. Sales, you were just saying sales are going to be down to– I had thought about 3.9, you’re thinking lower.

Kevin: Yes. I thought it was going to be adjusted to around 3.7, 3.8. 3.8 million. So maybe it’s 3.9. Hopefully, it’s 3.9.

Anthony: That’s national existing home sales. The whole country. Now, for those of you that are wondering what he means by those numbers, in a normal year, average year, the last 30 years, about 5.3 million. This year we’re looking at 3.7. So it’s–

Kevin: Our Chief Economist, Lawrence Yun, is projecting that we’ll have more volume next year in 2025. We’re actually seeing a little bit of inventory coming back into the market, which is good. Hopefully, we’ll be up over four million, maybe four and a half million units sold.

Anthony: That’s what I see on the horizon. How fast it’ll happen, I think, depends on rates. It’s also, we have a new administration coming in, and I’d want to ask about that with DOJ, but go ahead. What were you going to say?

Kevin: What’s fascinating is, if you look at the US population over the last 30 years, population is grown by 30, 40 million people, but we’re down about five and a half million new builds in the last 10 to 20 years. We have not been keeping pace with population. That’s why I think people are feeling the shortage of inventory so much.

Anthony: The NIMBY attitudes across the country. “Hey, build homes, make it more affordable, but not in my backyard.”

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: It’s a problem. You and I, heck, we’ve done work on this together. The states, take Massachusetts, where we’re sitting right now, our home state, for example, they just keep making it harder to build. They continue to add more regulations and things like that that make it harder. You and I have worked together over the past, and meet with people at the State House.

Kevin: Exactly.

Anthony: Try to get them to be more sensible, but they don’t seem to get it. Now there’s not enough being built.

Kevin: That’s right.

Anthony: It’s super interesting. All right. Okay. A little bit more, back to the lawsuit. Got to get to some of these questions, and I have some others as well. One of the first questions that popped out at me, and it was such a simple one, but it was a good one. The buyer or seller sign a contract. The signature went on the agreement. Why did the lawsuit even go into anything beyond that? I remember saying that to Ketchmark in the debate when I said, “You just won a case basically making it look like something illegal is happening when co-broking is legal in Missouri.” Go ahead.

Kevin: No. The question is so simple-

Anthony: I know.

Kevin: -that I’m dumbfounded by the jury verdict.

Anthony: Yes, it’s wild.

Kevin: Yes. So, unfortunately, Ketchmark, the plaintiffs’ attorneys, did a good job talking about how the market works in other countries, but the jury didn’t understand that our market is the envy of the world.

Anthony: Literally.

Kevin: Yes. So, unfortunately, a jury of eight made the decision.

Anthony: Yes, and I heard one of them was asleep. Not that I want to criticize them, but they’re doing their civil duty, but one of them fell asleep at a certain point, and I heard-

Kevin: I don’t know.

Anthony: -waters were being given to them, and tissues, and all kinds of other things, but it is what it is. It’s long over, and we have to move on from it, but it shows the complicated aspect of antitrust law. Because there was a tiny piece that he honed in on, and then it just goes to show, juries do go the wrong way on things. It does happen.

Kevin: I know it might be in one of the questions, but we talked about this, but over the last week, I’ve gotten a few emails from some members saying, “How can you be happy? How can you tell us it’s a good thing that settlement was approved?”

Anthony: I know. I know.

Kevin: It’s not that I’m happy, but we fought for the settlement. We fought to get it approved. We will fight to keep it, on appeal, because that way it can be in our rear view mirror.

Anthony: Yes.

Kevin: We couldn’t focus on the future.

Anthony: I know.

Kevin: We couldn’t focus on what’s in front of us if that was still hanging over our head.

Anthony: I know. I’ll admit, I’ve come around a bit on that, and I think you know that. I was quite vocal early on. I wanted us to fight to the death. Then when the settlement happened, I was like, “Oh, they’re going to get all this money, we should be appealing.” Like you said, the appeal odds looked pretty good. Eighth Circuit, a lot of conservative, business-minded judges. It would have been tried by judges, not a jury, but getting there, I remember I asked our general counsel, Mike, I go, “Mike, how fast would we be able to– let’s say they filed for an appeal.” Mike goes,-

Kevin: Years.

Anthony: -“Year, two year, three.” I’m like, “What?” He said, “Oh, yes, the appeals don’t happen quick. They can put you through a process,” and you mentioned it, “back to the local federal court.” I’m like, “Holy God.”

Kevin: Yes, the lower court.

Anthony: In the meantime-

Kevin: Yes, meantime.

Anthony: -they would have sued everybody in the industry. Then everybody would have been fighting. You can totally see what they did. They’re assassins. They know where to find a spot, and then they just play on it. I don’t like what happened, I don’t like how everything was dealt with, but there’s nothing you and I can do.

Kevin: Listen, I said it from the stage, I’ll say it here. It sucked.

Anthony: Yes.

Kevin: It did. It sucked, but we had to deal with it. That’s what we did.

Anthony: Yes, and you came into your presidency three months after the verdict.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: Three months and eight days or something after, and, “Hey, welcome to [crosstalk].”

Kevin: Yes. Actually two. Two months, eight days.

Anthony: Oh, yes.

Kevin: November, December. Yes.

Anthony: You’re right about that. It’s interesting, like some of the other questions, why didn’t NAR fight the lawsuit? I don’t think a lot of people realize, this lawsuit started 2019.

Kevin: 2019, yes.

Anthony: There was lots of fighting and things that went on.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: All right. Let’s switch, turn the page. Department of Justice. Someone said the Department of Justice continues to weigh in with the threat of future lawsuits and antitrust violations. What they pulled last week was just another example of this specific Department of Justice overreaching, as always. I read an article in the journal, and I know I’m supposed to ask him questions, but I just want to say all this. Article in The Wall Street Journal a month ago, over 40% of S&P 500 companies are either under investigation or under lawsuit by this Department of Justice. Most in history. They just hate business. Is that– you’ve met with these people. You said you’re meeting with them again pretty soon.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: Can you ask them, say, “Anthony Lamacchia wants to know, do you just hate business? Do you hate capitalism?”

Kevin: No, I will not ask them that.

Anthony: I’d love to. If you watch this, I want to know if you hate it, because I think you do.

Kevin: What I’ll tell you is, early June, I get a text message about nine o’clock at night from our general counsel at the time, Katie Johnson. She said, “Are you free for a quick call?” “Yes.” She said, “The Department of Justice wants to meet with us.” Said, “Okay, great.” “They want you there.” They specifically said, “We want Kevin Sears at the meeting.” I was like, “Oh, okay.” That night I actually slept fine. No problem. I like telling people, I slept like a baby. I was up crying every couple hours. No, I’m kidding. No, I slept fine. The next morning I said, “Why did they ask for me?” They said, “Because he’s the one that’s doing the videos.”

They’ve seen me. I think they saw a video of me on the Crush It stage in January, and I was traveling around the country talking to members about the settlement, I was doing my on-the-road videos. I said, “Okay.” People ask me what my highlight of the year is. I actually think it was June 26th, when myself and four other members of the leadership team met with the Department of Justice and defended our industry, the way that we operate, how we are pro-consumer, and how we have 1.5 million entrepreneurs who wake up unemployed every morning, but they choose to do this, and they put the consumer first.

We talked to them about, they want a complete decoupling of cooperating compensation, they want sellers to be able to do it. I said, “Listen, it’s allowed. Explicitly allowed in 40 states, implicitly allowed in the other 10. If you don’t want commissions, if you want a complete decoupling, then you need to do the hard work and go to each state legislature and lobby them to change the law.” Now they– Oh, one other person was with us. It was myself, Kevin Brown, Vince Malta, Nate Johnson, and Sharon Millett. We’re the five from the leadership team that were there.

Our CEO, Nykia Wright, a couple of our attorneys. We had Gary Acosta, who is the CEO of NAHREP, the National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals, yes. We had Gary there very specifically because we wanted to talk about the fair housing issues and implications of what the Department of Justice was saying they want to see happen. At that meeting, they said, “No, we’re not going to talk about fair housing. We want to talk about these three things when we talk about it.” They promised that they would meet with us again to talk about fair housing.

December 12th, I’ll be traveling to Washington, D.C. on behalf of the National Association of Realtors. We’ll be going in with a handful of real estate practitioners that have real life experience, and are going to communicate to the Department of Justice, if they got their way, what they believe would happen in the market. I’m excited about that. What the Department of Justice did last week was very disrespectful. Not only to the plaintiffs-

Anthony: To everybody involved.

Kevin: -not only to the defendants, but to the court. So disrespectful. Giving them a brief 40 hours before the final– or less than.

Anthony: Yes, last Sunday night. Yes.

Kevin: Yes. One of the things that they talk a little bit about complete decoupling of cooperative compensation, but they focus most of their attention to a written buyer agreement. A written agreement with the buyer. They think that that is going to alleviate competition. Do they have a problem with written contracts with sellers? I don’t understand how giving a consumer valuable information about the services that’s going to be provided, and the payment that I’m looking to get, that you’re looking to get, if you are successful in helping them, I don’t see how that’s anti-competitive.

Anthony: In my eyes, what it showed is what we all know. They just hate our industry. They don’t like realtors, they don’t like business, and so they just want to cause trouble. If you read it, which I read every bit of it, I did videos on it, they’re honing in on the buyer agreement. You could even tell by some of the wording, they don’t quite get it. Then they did make a mention of, “We also don’t think sellers should be able to offer compensation.” I have more to say on that, but go ahead, finish your thought.

Kevin: Yes. The thing is that when we met with them in June, they never once talked about that being a bad thing. We’ve had multiple conversations with them throughout the summer and the fall. They never once said they had an issue with a written agreement with a buyer.

Anthony: This is them.

Kevin: We were shocked that this would happen. Just for the viewers, the agents, the realtors out there that are watching this, one of the attorneys in the Department of Justice referred to us using a word that you and I would use when we talk about murderers, human traffickers, or drug traffickers.

Anthony: Let me guess, cartel.

Kevin: So, so, disrespectful. We were there to see-

Anthony: Oh, that’s what Ketchmark was saying all over television a year ago, and why I started doing my videos. He said at the beginning of the debate, “I’m not using it in the modern day term.” That’s how we take it.

Kevin: Yes. We were there and trying to find common ground. One of the attorneys did this. I give Sharon Millett a ton of credit. She’s from Maine. She was president of NAR back in the ’90s. She just calmly said, “You want us to be at the table to have conversation with you to see if we can find common ground, and you use that derogatory word?”

Anthony: That’s how I feel.

Kevin: She was so much nicer than I would have been. I was glad that she was there. That’s the mindset of some of the attorneys in the Department of Justice. There was one who obviously, I think she must have had a bad experience.

Anthony: Experience. Yes.

Kevin: Right? I just leaned over. I said, “You obviously had a bad experience, and I am sorry. I sure hope that person was not a realtor. If they were, give me their name. I’ll kick them out.” I don’t know if I can kick somebody out, but-

Anthony: Yes, I know what you mean.

Kevin: -it’s like, don’t use one bad apple to define us all.

Anthony: There’s 300– well, now there’s close to 400 million people in the United States. There’s 1.5 million realtors, despite the disruptors wanting it to be less. You’re going to have some bad actors in every industry.

Kevin: There’s another million and a half to 2 million licensees that aren’t realtors.

Anthony: Correct. That are non-realtors.

Kevin: Right.

Anthony: Now, I want to hone in, for a couple minutes, on two things. They made noise about the buyer broker agreement, but the judge clearly didn’t. I don’t even think he listened. I’m sure he put on a good act for it. On that, we were with the judge. As frustrated as I was with this judge throughout the case, and favoritism that seemed to go the other way. I’m saying that.

Kevin: Yes, you are. I’m not. [laughs]

Anthony: I actually was like, “He’s right.” Then they also said, “Oh, sellers shouldn’t be able to offer compensation.” This is what pisses me off so badly, is all these people that have no understanding. When I debated Ketchmark, I said to him, “You have no understanding.” I didn’t just say it then. I said it on the phone with him. I said it many times. The mortgage finance system does not allow people, brokers, buyers, sellers, to take commission and put it on top of what they’re financing. That would be a personal loan. It doesn’t work.

“Oh, no, we can change regulations,” blah, blah, blah. That’s what they said. It’s bullshit. Here we are, 120 days in, or maybe a little more. Since August 15th or 17th, or even further along in New Hampshire, guess what? Over 90% of the transactions that are happening in our company, which is a lot of transactions, we’ll sell close to 5,000 homes this year. Guess who’s paying the compensation.

Kevin: The seller.

Anthony: The seller. The buyers are requesting it.

Kevin: It’s being negotiated, and it’s part of the [crosstalk]. Yes.

Anthony: The buyers are requesting it, it’s being negotiated, the seller’s paying it. These people went out and caused this whole mess, and in the end, sellers are still paying it. It goes on. Now, I will admit, I do like the fact that agents are doing more training. There’s some peripheral things that I say, “Okay, well, that’s good to see.”

Kevin: The good news though, Anthony, is that the agents that are following the rules are having an agreement signed with a buyer, and the buyer is being educated that if the seller doesn’t agree to pay, that they will. We’re seeing that happen, too. I think-

Anthony: It’s funny that most sellers are agreeing to pay it.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: That’s the interesting part, right?

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: Sorry to cut you off.

Kevin: No, no, that’s okay. You get to look at your company numbers. I don’t know what the numbers are across the country. What I’m hearing is the way that it’s being negotiated and is part of the purchase contract.

Anthony: Now, any insight, and maybe it’s awkward to say this a week before you’re going to meet with the DOJ, but any insight into what you guys expect to be different when the Trump administration comes in?

Kevin: Obviously, there will be some changes. I don’t know how deep the changes will go. What we expect is that some of the attorneys, a little higher up, will be sticking through any transition. Whenever a new-

Anthony: Administration comes in.

Kevin: -administration comes in, and they appoint their people to the Department of Justice, we’re going to be willing to work with them. Listen, during the first Trump administration, the Department of Justice investigated us, we came to an agreement. I don’t think that the Department of Justice is necessarily going away, but I think that things will be a little different.

Anthony: Let’s just talk about that.

Kevin: We made an agreement with the Department of Justice in 2019, 2020.

Anthony: 2020.

Kevin: 2020. Right. We negotiated during ’19. 2020. It was in ’21 when it was rescinded, under the new administration.

Anthony: Now, the reason that investigation was opened back up in ’19 is because the prior agreement that was 10 years or something, had expired. So it was up for review. I want to stay on this for a minute, because there were a lot of people that said, “Why is the Department of Justice looking at us at all?” As much as I’d like to say-

Kevin: We’re the most competitive business-

Anthony: I know.

Kevin: -out there. I’m dumbfounded, but what I’ll tell you is-

Anthony: It’s a big business. [crosstalk].

Kevin: When we met with the Assistant Attorney General, Jonathan Kanter, a very nice gentleman. I enjoyed the conversation. He held up a piece of paper and it was double-sided. He says, “Over the last 70 years, we have 38 investigations of the National Association of Realtors.” I said, “You were appointed in November of ’21, I was elected in May of ’22 on the leadership team. November of ’22. Let’s talk about the last couple of years.” I don’t want to talk about the history. I said, “If we have to go back to any point, I became licensed in realtor in ’94, so please don’t go back before that.” They talk about some stuff that happened in the ’60s and early ’70s. I said, “I wasn’t even born yet.”

Anthony: Ketchmark did that. Remember when he held the MLS book up?

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: “[unintelligible 00:36:50] here if you’re not a member of the club.” I said, “Those were the last years when I was in middle school.” That’s part of the antics. Got to say, the guy’s a good attorney. He did that in the courtroom and it makes the jury, “Oh.” Then convinces them. I’ll tell you what I hear and what I hope, and you can tell them I said this. I know that these folks are really going to love me there. I hear that a large swath of the upper echelon is getting fired, and I’d love to see it.

Kevin: What I’m going to tell you, Anthony, is I will work with anybody at the Department of Justice that’s willing to work with us. Because if we can negotiate some peace, then that’s what I want to do.

Anthony: Of course.

Kevin: Because just like the settlement and getting it in rear view mirror, yes, I’d sure love to have a little calmness when the government’s involved.

Anthony: Speaking of that, one of the people asked, “Hey, what did you guys learn that you’ll do different moving forward based on going through this?” If we talk about like the next five years. Now sales are happening. I’ve said it all along, no matter all the bad talk, buyers and sellers still want realtors, and the disruptors hate that. I love it, because they hate it.

Kevin: August 16th, the sun set. August 17th, the sun rose. We had new practices. The practice changes went into effect, and we were still able to work with sellers, we were still able to work with buyers, help people achieve the American dream. The goal for me is to make sure that a realtor remains in the center of the transaction. Right? When you have trusted professionals advising people in what is likely their biggest financial purchase ever, yes, then we can provide value and remain there. If we stop providing value, then that’s, I think, when you’re going to see things change.

Anthony: Yes. Like you said, there’s about 1.5 million realtors. Then there’s another million and a half to two million agents, real estate agents out there that aren’t necessarily-

Kevin: Well, or licensees.

Anthony: Yes, they’re not even necessarily [crosstalk]-

Kevin: I mean, like in Massachusetts, we’ve got 70,000 licensees, because attorneys can get their real estate license if they want. Yes.

Anthony: I understand. Moving forward, what defense mechanisms is the National Association putting in place? I hope we’re going to be more feisty. I’ll say that. You know I’ve said that to you online, offline. I have to say, when I talk with Nykia, I like her. She’s definitely got some feistiness. I think that’s going to bode well for us moving forward.

Kevin: Yes, I agree with you.

Anthony: I don’t know how much you want to comment on that, but please spill all the beans possible.

Kevin: Nykia is great. She-

Anthony: Oh, you guys gave her the permanent job.

Kevin: We gave her the permanent job in August. We announced it right after the real changes went into place. She’s great. She is a fighter. She has a track record of being able to turn companies and businesses around. She’s no nonsense. She’s a straight shooter. I love that about her, because we can pick up the phone, we can talk to each other, and we don’t have to worry about any of the fluff. We get right to business. Yes, she’s great.

Anthony: Yes. When I heard she gets up at like 3:00 in the morning and reads seven newspapers by 7:00, I said, “Okay, I like this woman.” That was step one. I am glad to see that. I just hope, and I want to know, and I know this is not in any of our questions. I hope the PR machine is ready to throw some grenades if this stuff comes back. I assume that stuff’s been talked about. Because that’s what happened during the case. The plaintiffs’ lawyer was mouthing off all day, and no one was giving it back. I assume you guys have had those conversations?

Kevin: Yes, we have. At some point we have to go on the offensive. Right. We’re having those conversations about what that looks like for us. I will say that one of the things I’m most proud of during the year is the way that we’ve ramped up communications, not only to the members, but to the general public and the media as well. We’re not hiding behind stuff, right? You’ve seen me. I’ll stand there and I’ll talk about the issues. People can ask me any question. If I say, “Legally, I can’t answer it.” Then people have been pretty good, but I’ll answer just about any question that’s asked, because the members, they deserve that, right?

Anthony: Definitely. There was a lack of that before. There was.

Kevin: All I can do is control what I can control.

Anthony: I know.

Kevin: That’s why any opportunity I have to have conversations, I’ll do it. There has been– Inman, over the years has– it’s been a strained relationship. I said, “Well, what do we need to do to fix it? Let’s build some bridges.” I’ve met with their CEO, Emily, a couple of times. We’ve had some communications. I’ve enjoyed the meetings. I was in Las Vegas, at their big event over the summer, and I was on the big stage answering tough questions. Actually, I was on the stage twice.

Once with the brokers, and then once in the main stage, and the fact that the next morning, Brad Inman actually paid a compliment to not only NAR, but to me. Okay, then it’s any opportunity I have to change minds, to let them know what we are doing and how we’re not hiding behind stuff, then I’m going to take that opportunity. So thank you for today.

Anthony: That’s part of why I wanted to have you, frankly, because I’ve been doing videos endlessly, but I said, okay, you’ve been in our company for, since April, granted you’re barely in the state, and barely around. I said, “I want our audience, the Crush It In Real Estate audience to be able to hear from you directly without–” granted, I shouldn’t say without my opinions. I don’t really know how to not put my opinions in, but I wanted them to be able to hear from you directly, and I appreciate you coming out.

Anything else you think we should cover that you’ve been getting hit with, that you’d love to clarify right now? Any stuff that you’re not supposed to talk about, that maybe we should. Yes, our viewers will love it.

Kevin: Yes, here’s the thing. Try not to pay too much attention to the major media, because unfortunately, we’ve seen them getting some stories wrong. Misinformation.

Anthony: Oh, you mean like The New York Times, Debra Kamin?

Kevin: Half truths. We’re expecting that they’re going to be putting out another article by week’s end, and maybe by the time this podcast goes live, it might be out. They’re going to talk about our advocacy shop with misinformation. We’re a very bipartisan advocacy organization, and I think that the reporter’s true political colors will come through in the bias that is projected in the article that we’re expecting.

Anthony: Interesting. So, you’ve been tipped off somehow.

Kevin: We know based on the questions that she’s been asking.

Anthony: Interesting. Is that New York Times?

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: They’ve been on a roll of putting out misinformation.

Kevin: Unfortunately, we have to do-

Anthony: They must– Like when you asked the person at DOJ, “Did someone do something to you?” It’d be nice to ask the person at The Times that has this obsession with, Debra Kamin, with just fiction. When the headline said, and they were the leading headline, because obviously, it got put out before the deadline on March 15th, “Realtors cannot charge–” I think it said 6%. I’m like, “What? NAR doesn’t tell us what the hell to charge.” That was the beginning, and then a lot of other media companies, it appeared like they just copied them, because they didn’t know any better.

Kevin: Right.

Anthony: It created a whole wave.

Kevin: Yes, The New York Times, what their saying used to be, they only print the news, or something about printing the news that’s fit to print, or whatever it was, and now I just– just disappointed that how much misinformation has been able to get traction because of the publication.

Anthony: That’s interesting, and I think that it would be good for the realtors that are good at talking on camera, and have good social media presences, clarify, fight against these things, because there’s so many of us, why aren’t more– Right? You’ve talked about that.

Kevin: Yes. Back in the first quarter of the year, and right around the settlement time, we engaged probably about 60 to 70 realtors across the country. “Hey, can you help get the story out?” We’re calling them our media surrogates. We’re up over a 1,000 now. I think close to 1,200 realtors who just have contacts in their local media. I care about what the local media says, and here’s the reason why. They know that we are the fabric of the community. If you go to any little league field, church, school, you see realtors volunteering. Soup kitchens, habitat builds. We are a fabric of the community, and when we can get our stories told at the local level, for me, that’s where the rubber meets the road.

Anthony: Makes sense. Well, I’d say the last thing that I want to touch on though is advocacy, and then we’re done. You mentioned how there’s going to be an article on it with some negativity. Why don’t we talk about what really goes on there? I think, Shannon obviously works very hard, extremely connected on the Hill.

Kevin: I went to both Milwaukee to the Republican National Convention, and Chicago to the Democrat National Convention. I was there with members of our advocacy team at each event. I used to say, they know everyone. I was blown away with how everyone knows them, right? Anytime there is an issue that has to do with housing, they’re getting calls from members of Congress, because they know what a great staff we have. How, when it comes to housing, the stuff that we advocate for, it’s not a Republican or a Democratic issue. It’s not a red or a blue issue. It’s an American issue.

Anthony: Homeowners don’t have an association. The National Association of Realtors is essentially the– It drives me nuts.

Kevin: I’ve said it from state side, I guess I’ll say it here. There is no National Association of Home Buyers, no National Association of Home Sellers. It’s the National Association of Realtors. Yes, we’re advocating for our industry, our business, for sure, but we’re advocating for Americans’ abilities to freely buy, sell, lease, and transfer real property. There’s no other group that’s doing that.

Anthony: When you think about, heck, how did you and I meet? I was going to Washington without NAR, setting up meetings with various government agencies, financial services committee, telling them how homeowners were getting screwed by mortgage servicers who were essentially railroading people into foreclosure when they could be doing a short sale. Then I got connected with NAR, then you and I met.

Kevin: Let’s give a shout out to Joe Ventrone. [laughs]

Anthony: Yes, that’s right. Joe, I remember Charlie Dawson came in the room.

Kevin: Charlie Dawson. Yes.

Anthony: Because I said, “Oh, I’m going to be in D.C., maybe I should go over to NAR.” I called Charlie Dawson, didn’t really know him, but I dealt with him months before on some issue that I had gotten connected with him. I said, “Charlie, I’m going to be in D.C. next week. I’d love to come by and meet.” I didn’t even know what I was doing, right? I go meet him, I tell him the meetings I just had. FDIC, FHFA, FHA, Congress, et cetera. He goes, “Are you a Kennedy? Are you related?” I go, “No, what are you talking about?” He couldn’t believe the meetings.

He walks out of the room, comes back in. That’s how Joe and I met. Joe’s like, “How’d you get all these meetings?” I said, “I just started going on my own, because I’m so pissed off at what all these banks are doing. They’re basically creating foreclosures.” That was the beginning. You and I have been to the State House talking about how they’re overdoing it on homeowners with energy. We’ve advocated for taxes. All these different things that are for the good of home buyers, home sellers, tenants, landlords.

Kevin: And communities.

Anthony: Yes, as a whole. The point I’m getting at is, this is my 20th year in the business. Last year was my, obviously, 19th. It took me 19 years in the business to do videos and advocate for agents, because we were being attacked. Literally attacked from every angle. The work that they’re doing in D.C., taxes, mortgage interest reduction. Why don’t you give a quick-

Kevin: A 30 year fixed rate mortgage. It’s a staple. There’s only one other country in the world that has anything comparable to it, right? That’s what makes housing affordable here in the States, is having that 30 year fixed rate mortgage. Flood insurance is an issue we’re always fighting for. Recently, with the inventory shortage, we’ve been fighting for tax incentives for either conversions of commercial properties into residential units.

Anthony: Investors.

Kevin: Yes, investors. We’re advocating, say, “Hey, if there’s a small mom-and-pop landlord that’s willing to sell one or two of their properties, that will reduce or eliminate the capital gains tax.” That will free up inventory. We’re trying to think of different things.

Anthony: Protecting the 1031 exchange.

Kevin: Protecting the 1031.

Anthony: I know Biden’s administration, two, three years ago, they wanted to cut that in half or eliminate it.

Kevin: Yes, and in 2025, it’s going to be a big year for us because the tax from the first administration are set to expire. There’s a lot of things in there that we’re going to fight to either maintain or improve for the betterment of American consumers. Yes.

Anthony: Yes, I know that was one. Standardized, yes.

Kevin: Well, indexing things.

Anthony: State and local tax.

Kevin: State and local tax, but then indexing things as well, because the numbers that were set in 2017, 2018, based on the inflation that we’ve seen over the last three, four years, yes, so it has to be indexed.

Anthony: There’s a team of, how many people work in the Hill every day? Between the Hill and the regulatory agencies, how many people?

Kevin: Yes, you put me on the spot there.

Anthony: Roughly. 20, 50?

Kevin: Oh, so, for Hill staff, we’re talking 12 to 15. Then we’ve got staff that will go out to the different states and local associations, another handful there.

Anthony: Also regulatory side, and it’s huge.

Kevin: On the regulatory side, there’s got to be probably 40 people there. Yes, it could be 75 people.

Anthony: See, that was my epiphany in 2011 or ’10, when I went to D.C. I remember sitting across from Joe Ventrone, and I told him the meetings I had. He goes, “Anthony, you met with this person, this person, this person, right?” I said, “Yes, how’d you know?” He goes, “Anthony, we know all those people.” Then they started inviting me to meetings they were having. I remember I went to Chicago, and different places, and I’m like, “Holy shit, they’re working on all this stuff.” Then I realized they were working on it way more deep than I was. They knew the people.

Kevin: No, but this is the thing. If you have real life examples of things, we need boots on the ground. There’s only so much I can talk about, about my experiences. We need your experiences. We need the other folks’ experiences so that we can tell the real stories to the decision makers.

Anthony: Look at COVID. I never told this story publicly, but COVID hits, a week in, everybody’s constrained to their homes, NAR calls me, “Hey, we’re having a meeting with CFPB.” Remember, I chaired the PAG, or I led the PAG when Trump came in, for our policy on CFPB, and I was involved with them in the short sale days. It was Joe that called me. He says, “Hey, we’re having a meeting. We want you on the call.” I get on the call, and I just contributed what I could. That’s a perfect example that the average agent doesn’t see, is NAR was in touch with all these different agencies, making sure that open communication exists. It’s really just DOJ, everybody’s pulling their hair over.

Kevin: Then here in Massachusetts, the realtors were involved with the executive offices.

Anthony: We were deemed essential, like that.

Kevin: We were deemed essential. I don’t know if I ever told you this. The list comes out, and we were not expressly included in the list. I called Karyn Polito, the lieutenant governor. I said, “Hey, Karyn.” I said, “We need to be able to do business. We need to transact.” I said, “We have $7.4 billion worth of pending sales right now, and if you don’t deem us essential, poof, that goes away.” That was only MLS Penn. That didn’t include the Cape and the Berkshires. I think with those included, it was closer to $10 billion of economic activity that would have gone away.

Anthony: You can’t stop buyers and sellers from buying and selling.

Kevin: Right. Within 48 hours, the list was amended, and real estate practitioners were deemed to be essential.

Anthony: We were one of the first states to do that.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: Thanks for that.

Kevin: Yes.

Anthony: It was necessary, and I wanted to put that out.

Kevin: It’s the connections that we make and the insight that we can have, for the decision makers to make the right decision.

Anthony: That’s right. Then the last part I’ll mention is, these articles like The Times, and I’m sure they’re going to do it. They’re going to say, “They donated more money than any other association.” Okay, that’s how Washington works. I don’t know how else to say it. Find me an industry that isn’t tied in politically somehow. That’s the way it goes. They demonize it, and it’s like, “Wait a second. Why is it bad?” Sorry, I’m supposed to interview him. Why is it bad that the National Association of Realtors makes political donations based on what will help home buyers and sellers? Please explain that to me.

Kevin: What I’ll tell you, Anthony, is we’re pretty much an incumbent-based PAC, right?

Anthony: I can’t even sit down anymore. I’m so fired up.

Kevin: Depending on who’s in control of the House, the Senate, type thing, our numbers are going to pretty much reflect it. In the last election cycle, we were pretty much 50-50. I wouldn’t be surprised if she only highlights the money on the right, that-

Anthony: Yes. Based on the questions, you suspect that.

Kevin: Yes. So, we have to show her, “No, no, no. We gave to this Democratic committee, we gave to this, and we ran opportunity races, and independent expenditures for these.” For all the folks. What we’re going to do is we’re going to support those people that are good for housing, good for our industry. It doesn’t matter to us whether Democrat or Republican. If they are good on our issues, we’re going to support them, because we want them to be in the seat to do the job.

Anthony: To help home buyers, home sellers, tenants, landlords. Well, listen, we obviously can go on all day long, you and I. We’re one hour in, we could keep going. Any last thoughts you want to mention?

Kevin: I just want to say thank you. Again, any opportunity I have to have a conversation to let the members know what the association is doing, because I do, unfortunately, there is sometimes a disconnect between the members and the association.

Anthony: I saw that in the questions.

Kevin: Yes. So, if they actually listen to us, they’ll realize, I’m an everyday average realtor, just like they are. We’re making the decisions to the best of our ability for the membership. I believe that for the $155, for 40– about less than $200 that they pay in annual dues, I think they’re getting-

Anthony: The portion that goes to NAR.

Kevin: To NAR. They’re getting back way more than what they’re paying in. Just the products, the tools, the resources, the education, and the advocacy that we’re providing. It’s– Yes, thank you.

Anthony: I will admit. I was one of those people that I used to complain about my dues. Then when I met Joe, and I started learning all that NAR was doing, I was like, “Oh my God, our dues are cheap.” Once I actually learned. I understand there’s frustration towards the organization. Heck, I’ve expressed some frustration. Just on the case, and this and that, but it’s in the past, we got to move forward. One thing about our business, it never sleeps.

Kevin: No. There’s always going to be challenges. Just know that we’re prepared. We’ll deal with whatever comes at us. I think that we’ve got a pretty good 2025 looking ahead to it.

Anthony: Well, thank you, Mr. President. I appreciate it very much. For those of you watching, you can follow Kevin on Instagram. You can follow– Pay attention to those emails that say Kevin Sears, President, NAR. If you read them and you click in, there’s a lot of good information on there. That’s it, my friend. Once you’re through this storm, you’ll be back selling more.

Kevin: That’s right.

Anthony: You keep your brother happy, it’ll be great. Thank you. I appreciate it very much.